Chloe Kim she/her

Chloe Kim met with me over Zoom in July of 2024. Kim began by sharing how she came to be a drummer.

Kim: I was 10 years old. This was back in Korea. I was attending church every Sunday and one Sunday they got the drum set delivered and I saw it and I loved the look of it. And I said, “That's it!” So I picked it up. This was after maybe two years of beginning to play piano and violin. I was getting weekly lessons, but as soon as I started playing drums I realised that's going to be my new favourite instrument.

“Was the rest of your family musical or just you?”

Kim: So, my dad sings and plays guitar. Mum also sings and plays piano. So does my sister. She plays. Yeah. So, I grew up playing music, listening to music and I would also visit loads of musicals and concerts because that was my parents’ interest.

“What do you like about being a drummer?”

Kim: Oh! I think I like playing first and foremost, you know. Because I've played since I was 10, so it feels like a really good old friend, but also like part of me. Like if I don't play drums for a week, it drives me crazy. So I think the fact that I really enjoy playing makes me enjoy drumming. But in a bit more of a poetic sense…

It really teaches me to be a better person, you know, because it's such a humbling experience. You think after, well, 18 years of drumming you would know everything about drumming, but that's not true. So, yeah, the fact that it's humbling experience and also a very important skill set for me to continue building the friendship is a great part of it.

“Could you tell me a bit about growing up in Canberra?”

Kim: When I moved to Canberra, you know, settling in, moving house, I didn't have a drum kit, nor did I have access to a drum kit. So, that was my first time realising, after six months of not touching the drums, I was going nuts. And maybe going back to your previous question… Maybe that was the time too. Like, after playing… Still somewhere in my diary from 2012, I wrote down “Wow, not playing drums for six months is crazy. I cannot do this anymore.” So maybe that was another little moment of realising I can't function without drumming. But I was lucky to touch base with local churches in Canberra to play drums again, so that was a joy.

And at a high school I was attending… they offered two streams of music classes you could take. One was classical music and another was jazz ensemble. And in classical ensemble they offered for you to play pitched percussion, but I wanted to play drum set. So I chose jazz ensemble, which was the beginning of leading me to where I am now. And my high school music teacher was so sweet and amazing. Even though I didn't know how to swing at all, he would announce me as a “heaven sent drummer” at, you know, like the local school fate or festival. You know, all those little encouragements from teachers… teachers there were so, so supportive of me. Like Canberra was probably one of the most supportive cities I've ever lived in.

“What was university like for you?”

Kim: It was quite interesting. I actually entered the course as one of the least proficient players on my instrument. So it was quite challenging the first half I would say. And given the nature of the music course, if you're not proficient on your instrument, it's hard to make friends because you don't get as many opportunities to play with friends. So the cons were, you know, I was a little bit isolated in a sense, just not being involved in ensembles or gigs. But the pros side of that was that I had time to practise.

Kim not only performs as a solo drummer, but plays in bands such as Sweet Tooth, Anatomical Heart, Holopeak and Playgrounds. I asked her, “How did you come to meet all of these guys? How did it all come about?”

Kim: I think I was very lucky to be involved in the Australian Art Orchestra's Creative Music Intensive from the very first year of my bachelor degree. So I participated as a student, but also at the time they required a Korean translator who can speak both fluent English and Korean. So as I was involved as a translator yet participant and a little bit of drumming, I was involved in the project every year. And every year all these participants get together from different parts of Australia, so I was lucky to build my friendship there and then continue the friendship after.

“What do you think has contributed most to you being here now and doing what you do?”

Kim: I think layers of people. I was very lucky to have a great teacher, our mutual teacher, Simon Barker. I also had very supportive groups of friends, you know. To name a few, it would be Jacques Emery and Helen Svoboda. Friends who were great friends but also fun musicians to work with, and inspiring musicians to look and learn from. And people who are slightly older than me who've offered me gigs and opportunities to perform with them and or for them. So, you know, members of the Australian Orchestra, musicians like Sandy Evans, Barney McAll, Jonathan Zwartz, who, you know, they all mutually know that I'm still a learning, growing musician, but somehow they saw something special in me and offered me almost like, eye opening experiences.

“In what ways did Simon support you? How did he help you?”

Kim: He specifically helped me to focus on fundamental techniques that I could always come back to, that grounds my sound and speed on the drum kit. So with that, I was able to become an independent musician.

“It sounds like you've worked with and are friends with lots of different people and musicians of like, men and women. I was wondering, what is your experience of gender equality in your music scene?”

Kim: I think when I was younger and when I was not proficient on my instrument, it was very difficult. I didn't feel heard, I didn't feel seen. And it's funny because only when you start playing good on your instrument, they want to play with you. And of course, you know, me too.

There were a few incidents that I thought it was unfair and only I was experiencing it because I was the only – or one of the few – female students at the time attending the jazz course. You know… Earlier on I was bullied by the same year group of male students. Not many, just a few. In retrospect, I think it was coming from immaturity. But still, that doesn't just justify their actions towards me. You know, I got almonds and nuts thrown at me at lunchtime. As a joke of course, but things that wouldn't necessarily happen to everyone. And we don't say it out loud anymore. In this world, we don't say it, but it there are still actions that get done.

By the same student, I was grabbed in the corridor and got my cymbal bag opened to check how fancy my cymbals were, which at the time, it wasn't. And then you know, I'd get teased for that. I was also, yeah… I got messages from anonymous people full of racist and sexist jokes.

So there were tough times, but I think maybe given that I was slightly older than everyone else and also I've had enough difficulties in my life that wasn't to do with gender focused problems that at the time it bothered me, but I also had a power to go through it.

Kim also described experiencing “unfairnesses” in the music industry. She expanded on this by saying,

Kim: I get asked to do gigs based on my identity. So called, I'm “ticking all the boxes” for them. But then when it is a creative performance that I would love to perform, I don't get asked. And sometimes I just go, “Well, why not?” Because I can. My drumming is the same. So if you ask me for one gig, why not for the gig that I actually want to do? Those unfairnesses.

“Thank you for sharing that. In comparison from then to now, do you feel like things have changed? Are they a bit the same or?”

Kim: Oh yeah, 100%. I think my career that's been building across the past eight or so years in Sydney… It's funny for, you know, it's hard not to acknowledge that for women now the layers of career is almost like layers of protection and insurance as well. So yes, I experienced the difference. And yeah, it does make me wonder if my skills didn't grow as a drummer and also as a musician in general, whether the situation would have been the same or worse. I'm not sure. Yeah.

“So in your experience, gaining more skill gained you more respect?”

Kim: Oh, yeah. But I do think in the music industry, that works for both men and women. That's just the nature of music industry, I think.

“Thank you for sharing all of that. Being like one of the only women in the jazz course in your time, like how did how did you come to terms with that? As well as maybe being the only woman in a band setting?”

Kim: You know, I think that personality is quite a significant factor to be a freelance musician. And from my experience, my extroverted personality worked well because I was not afraid of making noise and if I felt I wasn't heard, I would just speak louder. But I have seen and heard some of my other friends who were more introverted than I was, who were also female students - they had different types of experiences. So, after gaining some techniques and skills and confidence on my instrument, I started to play more, especially given the nature of jazz music. The faster I played, the louder I played, the more I played. I felt like I was just making my entrance, just putting my foot in the door of that cohort energy. Because at the time, as a student, if I was being completely myself with no effort to be involved, I probably wouldn't have been able to get involved.

So, I was constantly outputting myself, you know, “Check this out, check me out, hear me out, hear my drumming.” That had to be done. And I was happy to do it, given my personality.

“Do you feel like your gender plays any other roles in your musical practise? Or has played other roles?”

Kim: That's an interesting question. I think when it comes to practising, I like practising quiet, but I don't think that's a gender thing. I think it's just a different stage of my drumming. Because in the past I definitely loved practising loud. I used to get told in that practise room where you are in, people would come in and be like, “Can you just practise slightly quietly?”

So yeah, I'm not sure. But what I know is that I have a high attention to detail. So when it comes to practising, I really care about the touch and that each note I play is a correct note. But I do also feel like that's more based on my personality. Like I want the notes to be clear and perfect. Yeah.

“You've mentioned some role models already, but could you tell me about some more role models or mentors who have inspired or helped you to pursue your career?”

Kim: Of course. Because I didn't grow up listening to female drummers, it's always inspiring - still - to watch someone who's older than me and is so proficient on their instrument. So, Sandy Evans, who's a saxophonist; Andrea Keller, who's a pianist; Helen Svoboda, bassist. There are so many great players. Flora Carbo. Just people who are so tight with their instrument and strong, meaning they can literally play loud and fast but also in a very personalised sound. So you hear it and you go, “Ah, that's them!” Yeah. But I really appreciate everyone that I've been playing with so far, and there's so many to list. Yeah, but the fact that they respect the sound that I create on the drums and have something in their toolbox to offer back so that we could mutually create music is, yeah, such an inspiring thing.

“Incredible. You also mentioned you have done the Australian Art Orchestra intensive. Have you been involved in any other music programs which have been similar?”

Kim: It's not that similar but there's a Mutual Mentorship for Musicians program. It's called M3, which gets organised in New York by Jen Shyu who is an amazing experimental vocalist and multi-instrumentalist, and Sara Serpa, who’s a vocalist. And during COVID, they created this program to create a platform for female and gender diverse musicians to regularly meet up and present their own work, just to make a safe, happy place to support each other's work… I got to listen to amazing work done by Fay Victor, who's an amazing vocalist, Michele Rosewoman, pianist. It was just so fascinating to listen to female and gender diverse musicians who are very active in locations outside of Australia…

SIMA, of course. Sydney Improvised Music Association. I've got a long running friendship interaction with them because when I was younger, they would offer me great opportunities to perform and help my creative ideas to come true. But recently I've been also composing because they've commissioned me to compose new music. Yes. So that's been since 2016.

I've also been having good friendship and interaction with MONA Museum in Tasmania because the music director there, Brian Ritchie, he's also one of the board members of the Australian Art Orchestra. So yeah, it's very interesting. I think the Australian music scene is very network based, so once you know one person, it leads to many more opportunities.

“And what impact have all of these programs had on you as a musician and on your career?”

Kim: I think it's almost like having a cheer squad. So, because you can't do it alone, you have to work with others. So by doing that, you naturally learn how to work. And there are platforms to showcase your work, which means you have to work on something in order to showcase. And in those scenarios, we talk about others work as well, which means you have to open your eyes and open your ears to listen to what everyone else is up to. Not to be like directly influenced by them or anything like that, but just to be aware of my friend's interest. My friend's friend's interest. Yeah. So I think it's like an ecosystem of living as a young growing freelance musician very specifically in Australia. Being involved in those communities taught me how to think and act and go further.

“Can you think of any particular moments in your life where you thought, ‘I want to be a drummer! I want to do this as my career!’”

Kim: Yes. You know, when you practise, you're just in a very small, stuffy room and sometimes it makes you wonder, “What am I doing this for?” It's not that it's pointless, but you do doubt about it. “Like, is this really going to help me?” And then on stage when you're about to lose the triplet, your muscle memory kicks in and then helps you out and then you go, “Oh, thank you so much.” So maybe that achievement, very small scale, but literal achievement of being able to play what you've been always wanting to play and hearing in your imagination that you can do it and then make your bassist happy or the audience members to go, “That was a great moment of the fourth bar, 16th note!” Those little moments I think makes me go, “Yeah, I'm happy to continue doing this.” …But yeah, those are the moments where I go, “Yeah, this is worth doing it.”

…In 2016 I began my friendship with the Australian Art Orchestra. And way after I remember telling Peter Knight, who's the former artistic director of the Art Orchestra, I told him, “You know, if it wasn't for the Creative Music Intensive, I probably wouldn't have continued being a professional drummer.” I remember telling him that because, the jazz course, as much as it allowed me time to become a proficient drummer, it was also tough to see my future as a jazz drummer in Sydney. But without jazz, as a drummer, I saw a future. And so, I think the Creative Music Intensive, where you don't play any standards but [you play] your own music and sound and the people that I met through there who were actively themselves and were creating their own music, really inspired me to do what I do now, I think.

“That's super cool. May I ask what made you want to move away from jazz and jazz standards?”

Kim: Hmm. I find practising swing very difficult, and I don't think I've ever said that out loud to anyone. So there you go.

Yeah, you know, because I grew up listening to gospel music, classical music… Even now, I've actually started learning piano again from this year and touching base and reconnecting with the piano.  With their chords, certain sounds, they make me feel like I'm at the home base, musically. But when I listen to jazz, it's still very foreign to me.

And, you know, I don't think what I'm saying is I don't want to play jazz. I want to play jazz. But I think I need to experience that joy again, like playing in ensembles. You know, I used to love that. In Canberra, I did this course, it's a pre tertiary course called ANU Type 1 Jazz and it was offered to year 11 and 12 students in high school all across Canberra to come to ANU. And once a week we would do 4 hours of jazz ensemble, harmony, ear training, theory… So, I did that. That time was so fun. You know, I used to create my own bands and events, busking to play jazz all the time.

But then maybe in Sydney, seeing drummers who are actually trained in jazz, like seeing many of them - unlike in Canberra where the only other jazz drummer I could see was my friend who was also attending other high school. I think it scared me a little.

“Like, scared you to see like, the level of players? Or the amount?”

Kim: Both. And I was scared to face that what I was playing was not “swinging” enough. But I'm hoping that with upskilled movement on the drum set now, when I get a moment to stop creating my own music… And there's a gig in May next year that I'm training for. So I'm going to train to, you know, almost like reconnect with my love for jazz. But I think when I did the course, I was too young to realise that and also I didn't have enough skills to articulate it.

“You mentioned you are writing a lot of your own music at the moment. Could you expand on that and what led you to start writing music?”

Kim: Only recently I feel like I’ve finally found my own voice on the drum kit. And most importantly, that was through my recent performance 100 Hours, where I played solo drumming for 10 consecutive days, 10 hours a day. That was a moment to really reach the peak of my solo vocabularies. And that also led me…

It was quite a funny incident, but towards the end of 100 hours I thought, “I'm sick of hearing myself and I just cannot hear my own drumming anymore, so let me write music for six double bassists!” So I did and that will be released soon. And that experience led my friend Meg Coyne  - she's a violinist in Melbourne - to commission me to write music for her trio. It's an ensemble called the Moirai Ensemble. It's a violin, cello and percussion trio. So I composed new music for them just two weeks ago or so at the residency we did at the Bundanon Art Museum. Yeah. And then I got commissioned by SIMA earlier this year to compose new music, minimum of 12 minutes. So I thought, “I've always wanted to play with many people, so let me write music for 50 musicians.” But I think it's going to be more like 47 musicians. Anyway, so I wrote music for that and them too.

“OK, shifting the lens a little bit. What has helped you gain confidence on your instrument over the years?”

Kim: I think the clarity of the notes I play, which I worked on for a long time, especially through learning the technique ‘bounce-gather’. It took me a while to ferment it. I'm using the word fermenting it because it's like making pickles. You use a literal cucumber, but over years, it becomes pickled. So, when I was first learning it [the technique] again, I didn't think it was pointless, but I couldn't quite experience the beauty of it. But now I do. So, each note I play, it sounds like a “pickled” note.

So now I don't really care about playing fast and lots of notes. My idea of drumming has shifted a little. So even if I play a note, as long as that's a pickled note, I'm happy. And I trust that my band members are happy and so is the audience.

And so a great way of realising that was also in the recording studios. Earlier on, I would record myself, listen back, and I had these thoughts about how to make it sound better. But now, as long as it gets captured as it is, there's not much to do with the mixing, which is quite interesting. And the engineers I've worked with also have told me that there's really not so much more that they can do to make it sound better because I'm already creating these “pickled” notes.

So those were the points that I realised, yeah, this is where my confidence is coming from.

“What types of programs would you like to see in your music scene to better empower and inspire future drummers?”

Kim: If I'm in a position, what I would like to create is like an intense practise period. And that's based on my personal experience.

You could ask anyone who went through the Con at the same time as me, but I used to be the first person entering the building and the last person leaving the building. And during uni holidays I would practise 12 hours a day. Not that every part of it was very efficient, but at least I've done it and it was useful. And if anything, I learned how not to practise – like, I've learned how to practise efficiently. So that was worth it.

And also with the 100 hours preparation, I worked out every day for two hours and I practised leading up to it. And I thought being confident with your techniques and knowledge in music is something that everyone can benefit from, but especially female and gender diverse musicians, young musicians. Because I think the whole point of growing as an artist is also learning how to trust in yourself and the potential of what you're currently doing. But without any promises, like any literal promises, it's hard to rely on that. But if you practise, you can rely on the practise.

There's only so much that we can rely on the external factors like, say, a government funded program to support young female musicians. It's there and it should be. But at the same time what we can do as individuals is to practise. Really hardcore practise.

So, if I ever were in a position to create something for young female artists, I would create a nice mutually agreed schedule so that it can be accountable, so that I can practise as well. And then my students can practise. Yeah, that's something I have in mind.

“What is one thing you would like to tell young, gender diverse and women drummers that you wish you had heard when you were growing up?”

Kim: I would say workout. I know it's funny, but recently I've had a life changing experiences working out regularly. And I really wish someone told me that when I was 20. See, I was in unique shoes because I was born with a congenital heart disease and I never was encouraged to do any physical exercises. But recently my cardiologist is running one of the biggest scale research projects in Australia, looking into the benefit of regular exercises for people with congenital heart disease. So I was one of the participants in that study.

I started working out. And sure, I got fitter and I get puffy way less or even if I do, I recover from it way faster than I used to. So there's all that physical benefit side to it. But it really helps the grit in your mental muscles.

Because living as a freelance musician and artist is such a niche new thing, there's not many models to look up to. So your model is your model, and you can look at your teachers’ models and friends’ model, but at the end of the day, your model is the one. And so, to have trust in that and also an ability to keep going - say this gig didn't go well, but then having trust in the next gig and in that transitional state - what you can do is to work out.

Because when you exercise and you can do 10, let's say, I don't know, like muscle exercises. And then you go, “Surely I could do one more.” And you do, right? That happens in the creative sense too. “Surely I could try 2 more minutes of this practise.” And once you do it, that's just the really gentle but promising way of building up your musical skills, but also every aspect of skill sets you want to increase. So I recently realised, to young musicians, I'm going to start saying we should all exercise.

… [And] your model is your model. Sometimes I found what's handy is knowing the models you don't want to follow. Again, similar to what I've already said, I used to find things quite unfair, especially as a female young musician. But now I know that when I experience something that is not to my liking, I just know that that's not what I want to do. And of course, with that unfairness and mistreatment, if it's at a scale that we need to reach out for help and support, we’ve got to do that. But when it is under your control, I think it's important to just acknowledge this is something I learned so that I don't do it again. Or I get to learn that that's not what I want to do.

Say if you see a bad teacher, you can learn, “OK, that's a teacher that I don't want to be.” Or if you do a bad gig, “OK, that's a gig that I don't ever want to repeat.” So that's been helpful just internally.  

“Thank you. Is there anything else you wanted to add?”

Kim: Just quickly, going back to what you asked me… I used to somehow not trust this that much, but people would tell me, you know, “With years of experience, things will get more solid.” And I used to go, “That’s… I don't know about that.” But now I see what they mean by that. I was at the Blue Mountains recently and there was a lookout I was looking at and I have a bit of vertigo. Just a fear of height. And I just thought, “Wow, it'll be crazy if this thing that I'm standing on right now just like breaks down.” You know, just an extreme thinking. But then I thought, “Oh, wow, this has been here for millions of years, and I don't think today will be that day.” So, I just thought that would be a nice analogy to compare. If you've done 18 years of drumming, maybe one bad gig won't fail you as a freelance musician. But only recently I learned that. That’s one.

Oh, self-compliments are very important. You have to compliment yourself so much, especially because otherwise no one else will. So, if you just play a really nice cymbal sound at one gig, you could reflect on it and be like, “That was a really great cymbal sound!” Just so that you could do it again next time.

And I think that's why the documentation process is very important. This is what I do. I've always documented my drumming. And now I watch back drumming from when I was 15 and surprisingly, it was quite good! And I recently watched some of my old videos and I went, “Wow, that's pretty impressive for a 15-year-old drummer.” But also, you know, compared to now, that drumming is, you know… there is much room to develop.

So, I think it's very good to observe your own growth, because the nature of this career… it's not like you can see the improvement by the different amounts of income you earn. I mean, it's part of it, it happens, but also still it's very… it's a bit random, unlike other jobs. So, documentation of yourself and looking back, reflecting on it, self-compliments and observing is a big part.

Yeah, I think that's everything I've got.

“Lovely. Yeah, I think that's everything from me too. Thank you, Chloe.”

Drummer Chloe Kim (Yeajee Kim, 김예지; MMus Performance Research. she/her) is one of Australia's foremost improvising musicians.

Chloe constantly performs alongside legendary musicians, and her strength as an artist also emanates in the setting of solo drum set performances. Since 2018, Chloe has performed solo at the Sydney Opera House, Powerhouse Museum, Art Gallery of New South Wales, and Museum of Old and New Art. In 2023 she performed 100 hours of solo drumming over 10 consecutive days at the ‘MONA FOMA’ festival in Tasmania. She also performed a live response to Do Ho Suh's Staircase-III installation at the Museum of Contemporary Art for Sydney Festival and composed/performed a score in the forthcoming documentary The Independents about the 2022 Australian Federal Election.

To date Chloe has released 4 solo drum albums which have received media praise in the UK, France, and the United States. She was also a soloist in Jeremy Rose's APRA Art Music Award-winning work Disruption! The Voice of Drums, which featured at the Sydney Festival (2021) and Melbourne International Jazz Festival (2022).

Having completed a Bachelor’s degree in Jazz Performance followed by a Masters thesis in solo drum set performance, Chloe has been a passionate and beloved lecturer at the Sydney Conservatorium of Music in the Drum Set faculty since 2021. Chloe wishes to describe her drumming by citing one of the lines from her research: "a propulsive quality in drumming performance characterised by a high level of intensity and precise execution of the musical details afforded by physical agility".

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Courtesy of Chloe Yeajee Kim.